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 Post subject: Re: hidden facts...
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 7:14 pm 
Demon

Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:42 am
Posts: 24
Hand wrote:
cloaked wrote:
When i did my origional imptorp test like 5 months ago, I was under the common assumption that the vay dd has more attack power (which is indeed false).
Isn't this the common assumption because the listed default attack strength is higher for vaygr dd? I don't have game installed right now, so I can't check. (According to MasterHid, hiig is 1034 and vaygr is 1100.) You monkeys should lab this and tell lazy ol' me the results.


The overall Attack is missleading since Vaygr has a couple anti fighter guns [Not the Turrets] top and bottom which do not engage in a DD v DD battle.


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 Post subject: Re: hidden facts...
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 8:41 pm 
Biting dog

Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2007 5:40 am
Posts: 69
From WeaponTuning.xls :

Original DD torpedos - 3000 damage, 0.5 penetration against all but collector armor, which is 0.6
Upgraded torpedos, both DD and frigs - 1520 damage, 1.0 penetration against all armor

All in all, its not worth getting improved torpedos for DDs only.

On the funny note, DD's torpedos actually do less damage against collector armor when upgraded...

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 Post subject: Re: hidden facts...
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 6:25 am 
Evil Soul

Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 11:58 pm
Posts: 124
Interesting, so it does actually change the torpedos used, but the change is effectively nill. A 1%upgrade vs all except colls - which lose about 10%. Been i while since i last modded for hw2 but i'll have to take a look at the ship tuning spreadsheet. Would probably turn up some raw data that would confirm/disprove my attacking tactics.

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 Post subject: Re: hidden facts...
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 5:03 am 
Demon

Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2007 3:03 pm
Posts: 375
i just remembered this fact that its probably rather a bug, but when vaygr bc hits some engine on another cap ship, even if the engine is dead, the damage done to hull on top of the dead engine becomes marginablly low... i think its a bug, but when u move vay bc, make sure to keep turning it around to avoid engine hitting even if the engine is dead.


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 Post subject: Re: hidden facts...
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 3:04 pm 
Biting dog

Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2007 5:40 am
Posts: 69
Those spreadsheets can be very interesting, when uncovering all these "hidden" facts.

How many people actually know the difference between Hiigaran and Vaygr EMP? Apart from the fact that the first one sucks, of course. Here are a few facts to show you what makes them so much different:

--Effect---------Vaygr--------Hiigaran--
_________________________________
Fire Speed--------900-----------900---
Radius-------------500-----------500---
Recharge----------60------------60-----
Effect time--------35------------35-----
Range-------------600----------3000----
Predict Velocity---yes------------no----

So, as you can see, the last two parameters greatly increase the effectiveness of Vaygr EMP. If you can micro Hiigaran scouts good enough, you can make Hiigaran EMP work the same as the Vaygr one, since the radius is the same. However, that can be very difficult, since the Hiigaran scouts fire EMP from so far away and they don't lead the target.
Also, not that it really matters, EMP bursts have only 5% chance of penetrating DFF defense field.

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 Post subject: Re: hidden facts...
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 10:38 pm 
Evil Soul

Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 11:58 pm
Posts: 124
Ya the downside of the hiig emp bomb is that because its range is so high it launches too far from its target and misses. But if your chasing a lv1 int you could just have the scout attack the enemy int and once it gets on top of the enemy int press the emp key. But unless you tranfer your scout to a vay player for a big speed upgrade, the hiig scout's speed is only 480 and lv2 int/ass are 488 so they would never be able to catch up.
Note: The vay scout still rules because its easier to manage, can easily be upgraded to 630 speed, and you get a unit cap of 18 fighters.


Here's some more info from the ship spreadsheet:

By looking at a ship's attack value to its hull value of an ion, dd and bc - you can can see which ship should be killed first. The ship w/ the highest ratio (high attack and low hull) should be attacked first. I compaired all ships at lv2 hull, but the attack priority in general remains the same even when your compairing different ship hull levels.
CAP SHIP ATTACK PROIRITY:
Ions:BC->Ions->DD
DD:BC->Ions->DD
BC:BC->DD->Ions
Enemy dd should be the last target for your ions/dd since dd has a very tough hull compaired to its rather low attack value. Enemy ion frigs should be the last target for your bc's since enemy ions only take half damage from your bc.

Also some ships get an attack reduction when attacking a specific ship. Here's some highlights)
Attack Penetration:
hiig bc attack at 50% vs frigs
hiig ions attack at 20% vs colls (this is why torps work so good in compairison)
hiig pulsar attack at 60% vs colls (this is why missle corvs work so much better vs colls)
vay bc attack for shit vs frigs(60% for missles, and often miss w/ trinity) and colls(20%)
vay dd attack at only 20% vs colls (this is why vay dd sucks vs collectors)
vay lazers attack at only 24% vs colls (cc's make better targets for this reason)

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 Post subject: Re: hidden facts...
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 12:07 am 
Demon

Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2007 3:03 pm
Posts: 375
also i doubt many knows but attacking the rear and side of capital ships gives more damage. but for bc, still sacrificing the engine is better than keeping it face all forward. but ions and dd can just move around to attack from other than right from the front.


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 Post subject: Re: hidden facts...
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 3:00 pm 
Biting dog

Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2007 5:40 am
Posts: 69
Hideki wrote:
also i doubt many knows but attacking the rear and side of capital ships gives more damage. but for bc, still sacrificing the engine is better than keeping it face all forward. but ions and dd can just move around to attack from other than right from the front.


If that is true, then it is hardcoded into the game, because the lua files do not contain any special information on frontal or side attacks.


On the Cap ship attack priority on my list when attacking with ions destroyers are targeted before the enemy ions. When the enemy ion frig dies, my ions have to rotate and retarget, losing time. Also, on large battles enemy DDs pose the highest threat to my ions, and I usually prefer to get rid of them first and deal with ions later.


And another funny fact : laser vettes are less accurate when firing at vettes than they are when firing at much smaller and faster fighters...

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 Post subject: Re: hidden facts...
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 4:56 pm 
Demon

Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:42 am
Posts: 24
cloaked wrote:
Also some ships get an attack reduction when attacking a specific ship. Here's some highlights)
Attack Penetration:
hiig bc attack at 50% vs frigs
hiig ions attack at 20% vs colls (this is why torps work so good in compairison)
hiig pulsar attack at 60% vs colls (this is why missle corvs work so much better vs colls)
vay bc attack for shit vs frigs(60% for missles, and often miss w/ trinity) and colls(20%)
vay dd attack at only 20% vs colls (this is why vay dd sucks vs collectors)
vay lazers attack at only 24% vs colls (cc's make better targets for this reason)


Vaygr Capitals sure do have trouble with Colls, though I suppose it would be a bit overpowered if a Vaygr DD would kill 4 colls with a single Broadside.

Speaking of Trinity Cannon, ever seen it fire 90 degrees?

Quote:
If that is true, then it is hardcoded into the game, because the lua files do not contain any special information on frontal or side attacks.
It is true, pretty easy to see in a normal HMF vs Ion battle since the HM's retarget usually from the rear of the Ions.


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 Post subject: Re: hidden facts...
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 4:04 am 
Demon

Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2007 3:03 pm
Posts: 375
it's not hard coded, when i looked at it (those excel files iirc) a few years ago, it was there.
also hmf is good since their attack are more likely to be less wasted than ions as cloaked describes.
if 20 ions finish off a single ion, they can't use the full force but waste some but hmf will not waste as they retarget to next.

vaygr trin cannons can do 45 degree angle (or even 90... never seen it at that angle) but it's easy to see it happen yourself when,

1) you have a target with the vaygr bc and it does the normal trinity cannon on it
2) and just when the second trin is out (or even before that), retarget to another ship on the side
3) the third trinity cannon goes on to that ship no matter where it is...

it can also happen automatically when first shot of the trinity cannon finishes off the target and it automatically retargets to next on the second fire on the trin cannon and the third shot makes a very weird angle. if you're good enough to know 2 shots of trin cannon can finish off a target, you can manually retarget 3rd shot to not waste it but this is kinda uber geek stuff to do...


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